Someone Has Brand Shame

"dr861" (dr861)
03/17/2015 at 12:16 • Filed to: None

Spotted on the UWS:

DISCUSSION (61)

ColoradoTaco > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:19

Brand shame? more like JDM BRO

Jonathan Harper > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:20

They just fixed it, that's all.

jariten1781 > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:23

FWIW there's a lot of 86s rebadged as Scions in Japan.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:24

Soo.. it's only sold as a Scion in the US? Here in Norway it's only sold as a Toyota. (and a Subaru of course)

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:25

A lot of people in my club have rebadged their FR-S's.

I thought about doing it, but then decided I didn't want to have to explain to people "Well it's a Toyota everywhere else in the world, but here it's a Scion. But it should have been a Toyota to begin with, and so I wanted it to represent the sports car/racing heritage of Toyota that it should have. Because I don't like Scion that much for... blah blah blah."

Just decided it'd be too much of a hassle. It's a Scion FR-S, I'ma just go with that. lol

dr861 > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:25

Only as Scion and Subie. No gt86 here.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:28

I never really understood the point about Scion, Acura or Infinity. Do people in the US really care that much about brands?

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:30

I probably would too, did see an FR-S with the Subie badge though, not cool.

jariten1781 > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:33

Yes, what else would explain the CLA?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:34

Yes. The long history of car branding in the US is very different from elsewhere in the world. Most US manufacturers have had numerous brands for most of their history to differentiate cars that are little more than trim (and sometimes drivetrain) changes.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:35

More sort of an attempt to repeat the brand tiering rebadging of US manufacturers to a degree in the cases of Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus, but in the case of Scion, it very much was a sense of brand image sterility. People, by which I mean anyone who likes to consider themselves "not dull" have taken to seeing Toyota as a brand with zero interesting facets whatsoever. Yes, brand identity is very much an important thing, which is why Oldsmobile and Plymouth (as examples) became so polluted with their respective image problems they were jettisoned. Oldsmobile: the more dull and less prestigious Buick for old people. Plymouth - a car for people too cheap and boring to buy a Dodge... and so on.

Justin Hughes > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:36

I don't see the point of Scion. Sell the FR-S as a Toyota GT86 like the rest of the world, and ditch the rest.

Shame or not, I've see a lot of Scions rebadged as Toyotas too. I've even seen a few rebadged as Subarus...

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
03/17/2015 at 12:39

I sort of "get" it, but I think it's stupid if I'm honest. No offence though.

I do love me a 'Cuda though.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > dr861
03/17/2015 at 12:40

Rebadging the FR-Ss as GT86s is super common.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
03/17/2015 at 12:40

Yeah.. Edsel, Mercury, and so on comes to mind.. And Chevy had the Corvette as it's own brand for a while right?

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > jariten1781
03/17/2015 at 12:41

CLA? Like the MB CLA? DO they sell that as it's own brand as well..?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 12:43

I've found it easier to say you have a Subaru than to say that you have a Toyota that's really a Scion that's really Toyota.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:46

Some power that be seems to think so. I don't get it either. It may harken back to when simple-minded people actually thought that domestics were better and the Japanese were trying to hide their roots.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
03/17/2015 at 12:49

I kinda get that feeling too.. I DO see the point about Lexus though, but that's mostly because they're more or less a different company (as in not just rebadged Toyotas).

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:50

No, but people are buying it because it says Mercedes on it.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
03/17/2015 at 12:53

Ahh.. I see what you're on about. My bad. I do like the CLA though, but not because it's an MB, I just happen to think it's a nice car.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:53

It's the typical role of Madison Avenue advertising consulting types to counsel abandonment instead of revitalization, because revitalization is hard. But, of course, the whole structure came about in the mid-30s in this country due to advertising in the first place. FWIW, I think that having a marque identity is a good thing, so long as it isn't poisoned - but the ability to avoid poisoning a brand by letting it lie fallow has been lost in this country, if it ever existed. As the single biggest object a typical person will buy that reflects their fashion tastes, it's always been somewhat important to remain in fashion, and car brands don't come *back* into fashion after falling out quite like a clothes designer might. Not without work.

DrScientist > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:55

can't believe no one has said it outright yet about infinity, acura and lexus... but these brands were created for the US, where no consumer would justify paying a premium price for a nissan, honda or toyota just because it had leather and wood. so those parent companies created the luxury sub brands to tap that new market of buyers.

scion-toyota is a different story... one that i'm not really sure i get. and i dont think toyota gets it very much either themselves.

jariten1781 > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:56

No, but it's a shitty little FWD deformed sedan. If it were badged a Chevy or something people would just laugh and the thing would be a sales disaster. Because it's badged MB, and only because of that it sells. (AMG excepted).

It sells more in the US than any other country (25k freaking units).

JGrabowMSt > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 12:58

Dodge Durango: $25k

Chrysler Aspen: $30k

Unfortunately yes, too many people care about personal image here. You've got something nice or you're "poor."

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
03/17/2015 at 12:59

Marque or brand identities is a good thing, no doubt about that. And I understand how it works, I just don't understand "why" I guess.. but that's probably because I'm not from the US.

But you explain it rather well though :)

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > jariten1781
03/17/2015 at 13:02

I've driven one, and would not say it's shitty.. but I get your point.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > JGrabowMSt
03/17/2015 at 13:05

I guess it's like buying jeans from Evisu or some No Name Jeans.. I don't think I'll ever understand it though ;P

fourvalleys > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 13:07

I prefer to tell people "it's a Subaru." :-D

Kinja'd!!!

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > fourvalleys
03/17/2015 at 13:08

Psshh, more like BOOBaru! ;)

JGrabowMSt > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 13:09

You could easily spend the rest of your life searching for the answer. As I tell my sisters, "If you knew (or in this case understood), you wouldnt be asking."

In a sense, why would we settle for a Prius when we can have an i8? Its an "image" thing, and cannot be fully understood unless you felt the same way.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 13:10

What's rather dark as an observation is that most of the first generation of "new brands" that were spun off in the late 20s to mid-30s as the first wave of this died either sooner or later. Mercury, Pontiac, La Salle, De Soto, Plymouth, and so forth. The ones that survived the first die-off seemed healthy for years, but were never as "real" to the parent as the core brand, so came first to the chopping block later. The parent brands, conversely, are mostly still around - though GM is a special case with the convoluted history of Oakland, Oldsmobile, and so forth being external brands absorbed and *then* killed off.

Mostly, the US has been "have it your way" with cars for nearly as long as they've been around - part of the general extroversion. Though, I dare say you'll find very few Oakland men around these days...

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > dr861
03/17/2015 at 13:11

Wouldn't this be the equivalent of badging a Lexus LS a Toyota Celsior (as it turned out, people got in trouble for it)?

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > JGrabowMSt
03/17/2015 at 13:12

True, at least to a certain point. Some things cost more because they're simply better made. but a Toyota IS a Toyota even if it's branded as a Scion (well made anyway).

But yes, I do see what you're getting at.

RazoE > dr861
03/17/2015 at 13:13

I don't change the brand of my car, but I do change the name. My Scion xB has the stock Scion rear badge, but it has front/rear bB badges. My IS300 has "Altezza" in place of "IS 300." I do however only put it in the OEM location, with an OEM badge (no fake stuff, or stick-on Autozone letters). So I personally wouldn't swap out the Scion badges, but I'd swap "FR-S" for "GT86." But that's just me.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
03/17/2015 at 13:16

Sorry about my short answers, kinda busy here at the moment, but you do raise a rather good point.

What caught my attention though was Oakland, I've never heard about that marque.. Any info about that?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > DrScientist
03/17/2015 at 13:19

Actually, Lexus was created to prove that the Japanese could out German ze Germans.

Which they did.

Acura and Infinity are badly managed attempts to copy Lexus.

Go look up how crazy engineered the original Lexus LS is.

I won't argue that for a while Lexus was guilty of pushing nothing more than slightly more luxurious Toyotas. They are trying to change that.

anon-sxmcyecofnu1eocpqsk9iq > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 13:23

Apparently. I don't give a sh*t what it's called if it's a good car.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 13:26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_M…

It started out as a Ford T contemporary in some respects, but a touch or two nicer. Bought by GM, it was new technology at a low price point, and signature blue paint on many. It became sort of a nicer alternative to Chevrolet (in theory) rather than being much like a Chevrolet as it had started, but it didn't really offer enough for the money, and when they spun Pontiac off from Oakland to bridge the gap to Chevrolet, Pontiac ate Oakland whole. Rather the opposite of what happened with Buick/La Salle/Cadillac spacing.

Think of Oakland as an attempt to be a well-cut flannel shirt. Cheap, dull, working-man stuff with a sense of pride.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 13:26

I'm seriously thinking of getting a BRZ to replace my current DD soon.

I know nothing about the social scene for these cars. I'm not going to stance it, as its a car and I need to drive it. Are there any forums that aren't full of dude-bro knuckle -draggers who mock the noob when people ask questions?

I also would like to know where people are getting parts. I like the front clip on the BRZ more, but prefer the FRS spoiler. Or maybe those smaller lip-spoilers you see on Ebay. But as its ebay, I am leery of the quality.

Any insight you have would be welcome.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
03/17/2015 at 13:26

Aha, thanks mate.

noise > dr861
03/17/2015 at 13:28

This just seems silly to me

its a Scion as much as the toyota is a toyota. Its got different plastic on it, thats all that separates Buick from opel, or GMC from Chevy, etc etc.

If your so insecure you can't be seen driving a scion buy a camry.

I love my scion, its ugly and reliable and has character. Because its ugly. I love ugly cars apparently

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 13:28

I added an addendum - sort of what they were aiming for in brand vision. Not really a terrible surprise it faded away.

Decay buys too many beaters > dr861
03/17/2015 at 13:47

I'd be more ashamed of that horrific front plate border.

Axial > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
03/17/2015 at 13:55

The domestics play the same game, so I don't think that's it.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Axial
03/17/2015 at 13:59

The domestics do plenty of brand engineering, but apart from Saturn, none of them created a new brand out of the blue to try to sell to a new market in the last 60 years (SRT and RAM don't count since Chrysler probably wasn't even aware that they created a new brand). Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Buick, et al were established brands brought under one umbrella, not an umbrella fanning out.

Axial > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
03/17/2015 at 14:18

With the exception of Cadillac, all of those brands were reshaped to represent a market segment different from the ones originally served before GM acquisition.

It really doesn't matter though, because the game is using branding to sell an up-trimmed version of the same car to a higher-paying market. An XTS is an up-scale Impala. A Canyon is an up-scale Colorado. An MKZ is an up-scale Fusion.

How they came up with the brands is irrelevant.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
03/17/2015 at 14:24

I cannot say enough good things about the cars. They actually make a great daily driver. They are efficient, sporty/fun, and more practical than they look.

The FT86.com/forums actually have some great information if you look in the right places (mainly the tracking section). Although there's a ton of dude-bro knuckle-dragging stance boys too. I race mine in SCCA Solo CS class, and the CS thread on there is an amazing source of info.

There are plenty of sites for parts. Like an overwhelming amount of them. Evasive Motorsports, Nameless Performance, FT86SpeedFactory, TF-Works, and the list keeps going.

I see from your previous posts you live in Ohio. We have a FB group for the Upper Midwest. While most of us are from the Chicagoland area and a little far from you, there's a fair number of people from other spots too. A lot of people are usually looking to change up their trunk setups, so locating a good condition used spoiler or someone looking to do a trunk swap should be fairly easy.

dr861 > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 14:56

It's what most live by in the us. Don't quote me on this, but I think that the BMW 3 series was or is the highest selling car by volume in the US. I'd say 99.9 percent of those buyers don't know the kind of performance and cornering ability they have at their fingertips.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > dr861
03/17/2015 at 15:11

I know you've replied, but Kinja seems to be weird now.. So I can't see what you wrote..

DrScientist > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
03/17/2015 at 15:15

kind of a funny situation.

lexus may have been "created to prove that the Japanese could out German ze Germans" but only after toyota realized it could never sell a japanese version of a german car under the japanese brand.

also, acura launched in the US years before lexus, and lexus AND infiniti were both launched in 1989. so its difficult to say who is copying whom.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 15:50

My current DD is a 2002 SVT Focus. It's essentially the same car, apart from the BRZ being RWD and having a smaller cargo area; 2.0L NA engines with enough power to get you into trouble, but not enough to make the couch-racers happy (Mine was rated at 170/145), 6-speed manual gearboxes, lithe, nimble handling, brilliant driving dynamics, etc. Small wonder I liked it so much. Much more than the Fiesta ST. That just felt so odd to drive.

Thank you very much for the info. I have been looking all over the web, but I haven't really found anywhere that looked reputable. And searching for car forums without a good reference will always end in tears.

ranwhenparked > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 15:54

Scion was started by Toyota as a "do-over". In the late '90s, executives at Toyota North America were afraid that the Toyota brand was doing a poor job of attracting younger buyers, but they were afraid of alienated its existing customer base of older buyers if they tried to make their cars too youthful. So, Scion was created as a brand specifically designed to sell lower priced, economy models that would be targeted directly to younger, first time car buyers, which would allow them to chase that segment without undermining Toyota.

It hasn't worked. Really at all. After a few years of decent sales, Scion kind of went into a freefall and the only reason they still have it is because killing it off would require Toyota to admit that it was a mistake to create it in the first place, and Toyota doesn't like admitting mistakes.

Acura and Infiniti, on the other hand, were created in the '80s because the Japanese automakers agreed to "voluntary import restraints" in order to head off government imposed quotas. The United Auto Workers and domestic automakers were angry at how much market share the Japanese were taking and started to push the government to limit the amount of cars that could be imported per year. To head off any such action, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota agreed to voluntarily restrict their sales in North America. Since they were limiting themselves to only a certain number of imports, they had to make sure they were getting as much profit from each of those cars as possible, and the best way to boost profit margins is to go into the luxury business. So, they created luxury brands.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > ranwhenparked
03/17/2015 at 16:02

So.. disgruntled american workers got fed up with people buying cars? Did it ever occur to them that people bought the cars they felt gave them the most for the money? :)

As for Scion, I'd LOVE to have the Xb here in Norway, and I'm sure it would have sold rather well.

ranwhenparked > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
03/17/2015 at 16:26

No, it did not occur to them at all, nor did it occur to the domestics (mostly GM) to just start making the kinds of cars Americans wanted to buy.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
03/17/2015 at 16:27

Much of that forum still ends in tears for me.

Look up the Upper Midwest FR-S/BRZ Owners FB page too. I'm on there, and it's a great group of folks. Some idiocy, but it's all in good fun. Most everyone is more than happy to help out with any questions/info.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 16:53

I went ahead and registered. ADabOfOppo was open, so I stuck with it. Can't post yet. There is a Dayton/Cincy/NK thread in the Great Lakes region. I will check out the Chi-town area as well. I am up that way for work infrequently. Our district HQ is in Naperville.

I went lurking around and found that japanparts website. I need to hide my wallet. There is a duck-tail trunk that I just adore. But OUCH does $800 to get it to my house hurt, and it's not even painted.

I might have to live with a stock car for a while. Damn.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
03/17/2015 at 16:56

Yeah, it can burn a hole in your wallet real quick. lol

I started doing autocross, and thankfully decided to stick to a street class; which has kept me from spending a lot less than I would have otherwise. haha

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 17:15

I will have to start auto-xing more. I also need a helmet of my own. But, I bought a whole bunch of stickers recently, so there's that...

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
03/17/2015 at 17:40

Haha there you go.

I definitely suggest autocrossing at least once before you start modding. It may completely change your plans for the car. I had been planning on coilovers and a bunch of other stuff, which would have put me in the STX class, but after autocross decided to stick to C-Street.

These are great CS cars, although they are supposed to be "the car" in STX. I definitely recommend autocrossing and figuring out where you want to be. Talk to guys in your region, and check out the CS and STX threads on FT86. I actually created a thread in the Tracking section asking for input on which I should go with. There's a lot of good info in there.

dkpjester > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/17/2015 at 22:55

I'm that jackass. I don't regret it as the asymmetry of the scion badge drives me bonkers, but it often leads to awkward conversations where I (rightly) look like an asshat. A guy pulled up next to me in an RX-8 the other day and we both had the windows down. After mutual respect had been exchanged he asked "What do they call it when it's a Toyota?". "Mumblemumbleactuallyascionmubleshame". Like I said, aesthetically I think it works better, but I understand how much of a douche move it is. I've come to terms with it.

Kinja'd!!!